---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Question from "Nickie" Hello everyone, new to the forum and just had a quick question for anyone who has alot of mods...I have been a fan of the PT Cruiser since I first saw the design, super cool car!!...Anyway my question is especially for those who have installed a supercharger or turbocharger or any kind of serious performance mods on their car...Do you still feel the car is a liveable daily driver, including winters, or does heavy mods make it more of a weekend/sunny day driver?...And also just curious how reliable the aftermarket turbos and superchargers are on stock engines?...Any help would really be appreciated, thanks!!... Nickie Answer............bstockum Hi Nickie, I just finished the 3rd dyno test of my Highly DeveloPT Cruiser and was very pleased! http://www.geocities.com/bstockum/dyno.html? 1001105828200 It recorded 200 hp and 244 TQ, and has cost to date; Hahn turbo Kit...................$2495.00 Large intercooler...................700.00 misc. plumbing.....................100.00 GReady boost controller........375.00 Bosch BOV (blow off valve)......50.00 3" exhaust system(custom)...450.00 ---------------------------------------------- spent to date on HP..........$4,170.00 That is more than a stock stage I system, it is closer to a stage II & 1/2. I added the boost controller and glad I did! It allows my wife to putt around town, "just like stock!" but with 35-40 extra hp if called for... if I want to get routy, I just push the "NO GIRLY BUTTON", as my wife calls it, on the steering wheel and I've got a tiger by the tail!! ...with 100 extra HP! This is like a NOS system you never have to "re-fill"! Stage I is quite respectable, ... this level is a real sleeper for 75% of all the cars on the road! On high boost you have just entered the top 10% of the high perf world. The beauty of the turbo system is, if you drive it like your looking for gas mileage, you don't even know the turbo is there! ... and at steady state cruz (on long trips), you may even improve your mileage. I haven't been able to verify that yet, my foot keeps falling On the two trips we have taken since the turbo went on, I have clocked 22 and 24 average mpg. That is for the entire trip w/sight seeing and shopping, ... of course. Later, ... Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Question by Frank (oldguy) Bob, what's with the boost control? Doesn't it come with and adequate fuel management system to begin with, or is that an option that just makes it do what it should have done in the first place? Answer ........ bstockum Hey Frank! Yes, the system comes with a black box, to enhance the factory fuel maps and condition the injector signals, as well as a pre-set waste gate controller, attached to the turbo. The stage I is good for 5-6 psi boost. I am stepping "out of the box" and looking for much more than is currently developed by Hahn for the PT. This required an additional electronic boost controller. This unit allows the boost to be adjusted from the drivers seat, to almost anything you want/can use. The large intercooler I am running, is the magic to my success with hi boost. If you run a smaller cooler or none at all, you CAN NOT run these boost levels! I had no issues with fuel, until I passed 10 psi boost. At 12 psi, I had to up the fuel pressures slightly, but still no problems. The turbo system changes fuel pressure to richen the mixtures, beyond what the factory computer can do on it's own. This is done with a "boost activated fuel pressure regulator" and a high pressure, aux fuel pump. (Unlike the SC, that uses an aux injector) At 14 psi, I began to get some "ping". I upped the fuel pressures again and covered the ping problem, runs fantastic, but smuts up the exhaust pipe around town. This is the point where the stock computer, even with Hahn's black-box can not compensate, with stock injectors. Larger injectors and an ignition retard unit is next. Now, ... I have a knock sensor gauge, that senses detonation, long before you can hear it! By the time you can hear it over all the other noises in the engine bay, you are already on the way to a disaster! I have over $800.00 in monitoring equipment, not counting my lap top, that goes in and out of the car for testing. You are playing a dangerous game to stray too far from Hahn's settings without some kind of help. As shipped, the stage I system transforms the PT into a very respectable car at 5-6 psi boost. The 2.4 engine makes a bunch of torque with the turbo. You feel all of it too! ... Because you are not driving a SC with the crank, as evidenced by the dyno graphs I posted earlier. Torque is what you feel around town as a daily driver. Horsepower is what you sense at over 75 mph. That is a crude comparison, but torque moves things, not HP. You will wait .3-.5 seconds for the boost to come to full, but it is not like an on/off switch. It builds from the instant you put your foot down. You very quickly learn to anticipate your moves and be ready.(down shift, slip the clutch a little, hold the gas and the brake, lightly, at the same time)... those kind of things. Hope I helped! I get kind of long winded, ... like you haven't already noticed!! ... ......... Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Questions from Mike, I have a couple of questions about HRC kit. What boost are you running? At what RPMs do you have full boost? The reason why I am asking is because Super 16g w/10cm^2 exhaust housing is notorious for having a lot of turbo lag in similar engines. Answers from ..... bstockum Hi Mike, On my set up, the boost is very quick to respond. If you are lugging around in 3rd gear at 1000 rpm and stab it, ... yes, you will wait till the engine reaches 2500 or so before you get a boost response. That is not the way you drive a turbo car of any make! From 2000 on in 1st, 2nd or 3rd the boost is at 10 psi on my car in .3 to .5 sec. It increases quicker in the lower gears, respectively. It's all about air flow velocity. If a person wants to drive it like a tractor, then he needs to use a supercharger, ... ah, ... that works properly! SC's will "rip the guts" out of a weak automatic because the torque is on "full" all the time. There is very little out there to beef the PT up, so I personally chose the turbo for that reason, as well as the higher overall HP potential and adjustability of the system. The dual purpose nature of the turbo with the Gready boost controller, has been remarkable! My wife can putt around with reasonably 4-6 psi boost and not be afraid of the car. Push the button on the steering wheel and switch to 14 psi and you have a totally different car in your hands. My wife doesn't even want to be "in the car" when it is on high boost.!?!........ Maybe it's just ... ME...!? The super 16G turbos that Hahn uses are from the Mitsu. race division. I took the numbers off the side of the unit, (which had been changed from the "cast in nos.") and tried to find the turbo at World Pack, the parts house my brother runs in MD. The numbers didn't even come up! He had all kinds on Mitsu. turbos for Saabs, Volvos and Eclipses. But that number is a race part from another source. Hahn has been using Mitsu. turbos on his motorcycles for years, so he knows how to get a small displacement engine to spool up and make power! Hahn also sells turbo upgrades for many cars that use Mitsu. turbos. Many times, what comes on the cars from the factory, has had so many compromises made to it, to meet all the regulations, it is a wonder they work at all. Thanks for the questions, ...Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Originally posted by rocknsd: Bob, You say Full Gauges needed or You will blow it up. Could You please explain for the not so mechanically inclined, Answer by ............bstockum Hey rochsnd, That did sound a little scarry. If someone put a system on like this and then pushed buttons and cranked the boost like the "Fast and Furious", ... the engine wouldn't stand a chance! The turbo has the potential for some fantastic performance increases at the touch of a button. If you buy the electronic boost controller as I have, you can putt around town in third gear at 25 mph, no surge, no loading up the plugs, no stumble when accelerating. When you push the button and go to high boost, the cute little kitten goes on steroids, with an attitude, hungry for some sushi! The gauges are needed to get the fuel pressure, boost level, air fuel ratio and exhaust temps adjusted to keep the engine from being damaged. If you buy a stage I kit and stick to the instructions, all that is not needed. Hahn has done a good job of balancing these things out for you. I am jumping way ahead of the currently developed stages. That's what I do, ... push the envelope, with everything I get into. At 6 psi boost the car is just a ball to drive and makes some pretty cool sounds too! The unmistakable sound of the turbo winding up and the "pussssssheee", when you have your foot in it and suddenly let off the gas. Sounds like the old pressure cooker your mom or grand mother used, or still uses! I am thinking of changing my plate to read, "PRSR CKR". These noises can be muffled if they were offensive to you, I just like coming up on a hot looking Japanese car and pressing on the gas for just a second, then lifting suddenly and the PT goes PUSSSSHEE, to announce the BOV (Blow Off Valve) of a turbo. .... My wife shakes her head at me and grins. ... But she was driving it last night and we came up on a BMW Z3 and ... she did the exact same thing!! ... Their heads snapped over to see what made the noise! ...I said quietly to my wife, ...."if you are going to do that to the Bemer, ... you best push the, "NO-GIRLY", button on the steering wheel, cause you ain't gonna get it done with 6 psi!" .... She gave her signal and pulled into a closed gas station..... Good choice, I said. ... We switched and I drove home. Now ladies, ... she named the button, not me!! She is a little, ah .... cautious of the power this PT has, when set on "kill". I think I have scared her. I was in second gear at about 30 mph waiting for a car to "finally make his right hand turn",... you know the type, they give their right turn signal, then turn left and swing way right, finally getting out of the way. I mashed the gas in second with the boost on high and the tires lit-up!!.. with the car making sort of a "crabbing movement", like a front end fish-tail! I thought it was great, ...she let out a scream and put permanent finger marks, in my right thigh! ... I turned the boost back to low for the rest of our cruise. ----Thanks for the questions!! Bob / wiith a limp! ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Question from Don That is just sooo cool! This is one super PT! Now is it time to just enjoy the fruits of your labor? Or do you have more plans?? Don Answer from ........bstockum Hi Don, The frenzie is slowing a little. I still have the slippage with the clutch at 12 PSI. That i$ being taken care of as I speak, thou pricie. Closing up everything and just driving this great little car for a while is going to be nice. We are finally breaking ground on our new house so I have to stop on the PT and concentrate on the "Crib". HEE.. HEEE, ... I was talking about the project to my Wife the other day and this smile, came upon her face,.... she tilted her head, (which usually means trouble) and asked .... How old are you?? .... I said without thinking too much, .... "52/17!" Uhh-huh, was all she said. ..!?!?? ...I wonder what she meant by that?! I am just so thankful she puts up with my temporary insanity, concerning this PT project. Of course, every time I purchase something for the car, ... she writes something down in this blue book she keeps in her purse. !???! ... wonder if I owe her something, you know, tit-for-tat??! ...this could be . Nahhh.... You don't think she'd , ...... HO BOY!.... ......---- Gotta go, ----see ya, Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Question by mlbmd I have looked at various superchargers, exhaust systems, turbos and am at a loss as to which may be the most effective item or combination of items with the most reliability. Any suggestions and/or experiences would be appreciated. Answer by ......bstockum Hey mlbmd, Although I am headed beyond what most are willing to do to their PT's. I am going in stages, to see what kind of bang for the buck I am getting. The Hahn stage I turbo kit will run you about $2500 and is not too hard to install. The changes to the fuel delivery system are the most time consuming, but still not difficult to perform. The fuel system is one of the problems, some of the other, "power adders" are having. Hahn has done a good job balancing his kit to interface smoothly with the PT, dealing with fuel delivery right off. I am at the equivalent to a stage II+ and at the limit of the stock injectors fuel delivery capabilities. At 12 psi the engine is making over 230 HP and 240 ft lbs of torque at the flywheel. I will have new dyno sheets to confirm the exact numbers soon. http://www.geocities.com/bstockum/dyno.html? 1001105828200 At 12 psi the stock clutch will not hold, so I haven't been able to dyno above 9 psi. So the 230+ is an estimate, based on the break-away torque, 245 lb ft @ 4950 rpm. __tq x rpm / 5250 = HP __.....(245 x 4950 / 5250 = 231 HP at 4950 rpm. The engine still had 1500 more rpm to go, to make hp!?? I had sent a new PT clutch off and had it tested. It held to 245 ft lbs of torque. I don't want to sit here and guess!?? ... That is the number I know now. Stage I is the current kit available. The stage II is being developed now and comes with an intercooler that will fit the stock front fascia. Exhaust upgrade is a must to get the turbo to spool up quickly and produce power. The less restriction the better. That does not mean it has to be loud! I do not like a loud drowning exhaust all the time. So, Stage I kit is about $2495 exhaust system $4-600 (I had mine custom built for $450 and that was 3" cat, 3" all the way back into a flowmaster 3" in / 2 - 2.5" duals out.) I started with 2 long 3" bullet muffs end to end, down the middle of the car. It was too loud for me so I added the flowmaster.... NICE! Free flowing, yet quieter than by buddies Borla, cat back system.The bullets added about $100 to my system.($450 for it all parts and labor). If you are staying at the stage II or below, 2.5" exhaust is enough. Beyond that, custom is your choice. It's not a hard system to make and it does not have to be duals either. Stage I will get you about 190 hp at 5-6 psi at the flywheel. No problems, in fact you don't know the thing is there until you put your foot in it! On trips, I average 24 mpg and around town about 19. I have a heavy foot, so asking me to get the very best mileage out of a car this much fun to drive, is well, next to impossible. The stage II (~250), will be available soon. The beauty of the Hahn approach is, the additional stages are simply added on. That way you build on a base kit and don't throw away stuff, just to up grade! Computers turned the world upside down, in trying to convince us that it was, "normal and necessary, to throw away the old and buy the new!" .... that's why they are all millionaires too, "we bought it", literally! Hope I helped. If you haven't seen the installation on my web page, ... click on; http://www.geocities.com/bstockum/index.html ..........Thanks, ... Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Comment from ... PB Pod Hi Bob, I am an old hot rodder and road racer. I have followed the development of your PT since you started. You have done a great job. I look forward to your completion of stage II. I have a normally aspirated 1500 cc Fiat X-1/9. I built it as a autoX/solo car. Got a few FTDs under my belt. Just for fun I ran it in the quarter. First time out it ran a 14.03 93mph through the muffs on street tires. Of course it weighs 1800 lbs. I think your PT will get in the 13s in stage II form if you can get the power to the road. That will surprise as many people as my old Fiat did. Craig Answer from ....Bob Thanks! .. I think the 13's are in reach at this power level. The car is a bit heavy, but the torque is very high. With the new engine, I will be able to take advantage of the RPM potential of this engine and then the numbers will really start to climb. I grew up in the SCCA, autocross and such, so I am familiar with the X-1/9's and Lotus spec racers of the 50's, 60's and 70's. What a great time for amature hot rodders and racers. Now there are so many concerns about "liabilities", you can hardly find a place to play. Later, ...bstockum ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Question from ... Nickie [QUOTE]Originally posted by Signal7: bstockum--Hey, have you found the Hahn kit to be fairly reliable?...How do you think a stock auto tranny would hold ~200hp at the wheels?...Too much maybe?...Thanks for any info! Answer from .....bstockum Hi Nickie! Zero problems with the turbo system. Over powering the clutch has been my only issue so far. Starts, idles, accelerates fine, just like stock. Even the fuel milage, (22-24), is better than many I've seen posted. Bill Hahn's own PT is an automatic and he is in the middle of the stage II up-grade right now. He would be the best one to ask. His stage II will have an intercooler that fits the stock grill, so it will be smaller than what I'm using. The boost on the stage II will be around 8 psi, so the power will come in at about 165 or so at the wheels,(~195 @ engine). Don't quote me, but judging by my data at 8 psi that is close. The auto should be ok. The problem with the PT 4 speed, seems to be the fact that it is so tied to the computer, you can't do much to it. Like raise the internal pressures so the clutches hold better, change shift points, shift harder.... Maybe some brain child will make a stand alone brain for the transmission, that will handle the tranny functions separate, but in concert with the engine's computer. ... Ouch! my head hurts! well, I won't be doing it!! ... it's too deep for me. Later, ...Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- From: P TREX ... HRC Turbo update!! Have you experienced any heat problems related to the turbo install and are you satisfied with the performance at this stage? Date: 13 Sep, 2001 Answer from ..... bstockum The concerns I had about heat were taken care of by modifying the rubber strips that seal the hood too tightly. My wife just got her PT and was not happy with the spitting, the washers were doing on the hood and windshield. I removed the rubber strip and it stopped instantly. I even got the third degree from "her" about, ... Why is the strip there? ... should you be removing it? ... is that going to effect my warranty? ... will my AC be warmer? ... what about rain in my engine? ... why does the hood bounce like that ?!! ..is my lip stick on straight? ... OH!, .. no, that's a normal one.... sorry! anyway, .... you now see why I just quit posting about the darn rubber strip! later, ... Bob ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Question by; MotownPT Bob, am seriously considering a turbo install. I know you are sold on Hahn, but in your opinion would I be better off waiting to see what the factory system Chrysler will offer in the PT GT? My guess is that if you go aftermarket turbo available on the the GT package, dealer installed, it won't affect the warranty, which is my main concern. Also, what would you consider a fair price to install a turbo system (basic Stage 1). Thanks! Tom ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Date: 14 Oct, 2001 on 02:30 p.m. answer by .....bstockum I think the factory version will be a very limited and cautious approach to the turbo. If you get it and still want more and modify it, you are likely to be voiding some of the warranty anyway! My dealer has assured me that they will take care of any problems I may have, as long as they are not obviously related to the turbo. (melted pistons, ... that kind of thing). I can hook you guys on the club sites up, with a stage I setup. For $2250, for a limited time, (around the first of the year). I am a Hahn level 4 dealer/installer. I am "pushing" my engine very hard! ... Not to blow it up, ... but to see how much performance there is in the 2.4 in stock form. I have heard of some failures and that concerns me, but so far I am ahead of the HP curve and lovin it! I changed my oil and cut the filter open, to check for any signs of bearing material and all looked good! Later, ... Bob ....... ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- bstockum...pencil me in for a reservation to have you install a Hahn system in "SCHWEETHEART". I emailed you a list of questions that I have. Maybe I can think of this as a Christmas present to ME! MORE POWER! ------------------